So here's what happened. I was lying awake last night mulling over all the losses I've had in Warmachine, and I came to the conclusion that PP is to blame. As I thought more and more about it, I couldn't believe just how terrible of a game Warmachine actually is, especially compared to 40k! I wrote out some points about the major failings of PP, and how GW really does it right.
Cost
This is always the first complaint leveled against GW, so let's just get it out of the way now. Yes, GW models are more expensive, but you're also getting a higher quality product. Especially with the new Finecast line, you know you're only getting the finest casts around. Some may look at images like this and say that Finecast has increased price while decreasing quality, but I say nuts to them. GW knows what they're doing!
In addition, some say that building a single list is insanely expensive. Again, this is entirely unfounded. For example, the Grey Knight army I want to build doesn't even cross the $1,000 line. And what's $1,000 in the long run? A month of groceries? At least these models last for years! And as long as you have a newer codex, you'll be able to play that list over and over with little fear of winning as long as your list is well made.
In Warmachine, $1,000 will probably only buy you every model for an entire faction, but then you're stuck with a huge pile of Warmachine models. Talk about money wasted!
Skill
"Warhammer games are won by list building." "Warmachine rewards skill more than what models you bring." Man am I tired of that argument. So what if a 2 hour game is decided before it starts? If someone can't copy a decent list from a tournament report, they deserve to lose. It's 2013, it's not like information is hard to find. When I first started 40k, I found dozens of tournament lists with 90% of the players fielding the exact same Space Wolves list.
Likewise, Warmachine certainly does not reward player skill alone. If you want to argue, look at the Minions faction. Minions players claim to have bad models, but that shouldn't matter if they're good enough. Even if everyone else has battle engines and gargantuans, they should suck it up and win through pure gumption.
But let's set Minions aside. What about anything that isn't Cygnar with a Stormwall? Cygnar used to complain about being uncompetitive, yet as soon as they got a colossal suddenly everyone wants to play them. They're all over tournaments, and they're the only army that wins! It sounds to me that Warmachine is exactly like 40k - as long as you bring the most powerful list you win, and there's nothing else to it.
Power Creep
Many accuse GW of updating an army to make it more powerful in order to force players to buy the shiny new army. Instead, I think people need to realize that GW is keeping their game fresh. By releasing a codex that makes an army amazing they force players to experience everything in the game. If you could spend years playing the same Ultramarine army and win consistently, how are you growing as a player? Plus once you've collected a sizable force, you run out of things to buy. And what's the fun of being a gamer if you can't keep spending money?
Compare that to Warmachine, where some people have had the same army for 10 years. Rather than releasing books for individual armies and changing the balance of power, PP releases an equal amount of models for each faction. Sometimes an army will become more powerful (hello Cygnar), while others will get more of the same (Khador, Trolls). Sure, everyone will usually get something that can change how the army plays, but it's not enough to force players out in to a brand new army.
Let's face it, in addition to making the game boring and unrewarding, it's a stupid move by PP. People only need to buy their stuff once and they're basically set. GW has a steady flow of expensive models leaving their warehouses, thus allowing them to hire a sizable staff to balance the rules and armies, making sure the game is truly fair for everyone. It's amazing PP hasn't gone under yet, but I'm sure it's coming.
A Company that Cares
And this is where it comes down to it. PP fans claim that the company cares about their customers (as I used to believe), but if you take a look you'll realize how wrong that is. PP wants their game to be balanced and competitive, which means that every army is supposed to have an equal chance. They show this by having a strong tournament scene and balanced rules. And yet the same players keep winning major tournaments. How is that fair? How is that balanced? What, are they just that "skilled" that they can do well consistently? And what about model prices? Just because prices have stayed the same doesn't somehow make PP better than GW, it just makes them bad at business.
Now GW, there is a company that cares. Their constant prices increases and codex updates make sure only the best and most dedicated players do well competitively. If I'm not willing to buy an entirely new army to win at a game that truly values balance, then I don't deserve to win. Simple as that. It shouldn't require hours and hours of practice to be able to compete with the best players. I should be able to buy my models, build my list, and just win because I deserve it.
So that's it, I'm done with PP. The armies are unfair, the rules are broken, and the company wants to do nothing but rip me off.
See you tomorrow with something that isn't absolute BS! And don't forget about my giveaway - if you win, you could totally buy a shoulderpad or something for a Space Marine!
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ReplyDeleteTo be fair, I had to stretch on these. The thing that separates PP from GW, to me, is character vs detail. PP models are always a blast to paint because they have a lot of personality. GW (or maybe just 40k) has a lot of fantastic detail, but feels dark and uniform (which totally fits the setting).
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't hate 40k. I don't care for the game itself, but I haven't been burned by GW enough to hold resentment. I don't agree with GW's practices in the least, but you can't argue with the how good the hobby side of 40k is.
I hate their business practices aswell and it will eventually bite them in the ass because they will hit that price point that makes ppl say "screw it" and im not a fan of 40k either because armor is no fun to paint and dragons > tanks in the cool factor
DeleteTo be completely fair, I do a poor job of considering Fantasy when it comes to my view of GW. I bought a Dwarves vs Goblins box ages ago and I still have it sitting around because I want to paint the dwarves one of these days.
DeleteI've also been selling off fantasy stuff for guys in my group since no one ever plays it, and I love the models. Skaven are just so cool looking!
That's a shame because fantasy is very fun and skaven are hilarious to play. My first game of fantasy was with skaven way back when and I didn't have a single turn where one of my own guys didn't blow himself up
DeleteThis was funny but now I must come to the defense of the game I enjoy which is warhammer fantasy. I will start with agreeing with you that they have made a complete mess of the finecast line and they are working on a solution and in this case it is cycling finecast out, they plan to have removed all finecast by the end of 2014. I will say that gamesworkshop plastic models blow privateer presses models out of the water, an example would be the dreadnought vs any warjack and the dreadnought has far superior details or the new chaos chosen vs the new winterguard or whatever have you. Codex creep is certainly there and the ppl that cry about it are the ppl that cant be bothered to adapt their lists to fight it. I would also point out that privateerpress is just as guilty as GW at doing this thou, whenever a new book comes out from PP it is very obvious some armies get more love. Take the new huge based models and tell me that they are considered equals because I know quiet a few ppl that hate their Trollkings and the new circle woldwarden but the skorne players had an early Christmas with the mammoth. I myself am farrow player and im completely disgusted because my army got a crappy little 2 point boar that brought nothing new to the table and gatormen got rask who is quiet possibly one of the best warlocks in the game. Im not saying your wrong because a lot of the points you made are very right especially what an army costs but take a look at what some of the new PP kits cost or even the repacks such as 5 trollkin cavalry guys at 109 bucks which are models that require extensive greenstuffing to get together and not look like crap, compare those to a 5 man box of chaos knights that are much more detailed and plastic for 25 bucks. The reason PP is cheaper is because you need less of it, if you had to have 100+ models for a PP army you would not be able to say that PP was cheaper. In the end its not a fair comparison because you have warhammer that's a battle on a grand scale compared to a skirmish game that usually has 20 models max per army unless your doing a horde army. I just build a chaos daemon army that is 70 models and it cost me about 300 bucks and that's because I insisted on getting some forgeworld pieces instead of the GW pieces because I have to have atleast one ridiculously fancy piece per army, this list includes 60 infantry guys, 3 large cavaly models and model that's a bit taller then a collosal. I could not do this with privateer press. Anyways just my 2 cents
ReplyDeleteExcellent post Ray. I couldn't tell the difference between your sarcasm and the dribble that the GW Kool Aid drinkers spew.
ReplyDeleteThat's out of line and completely uncalled for. You act like playing GW games is wrong for whatever reason. Ive met a lot more warmachine asshat fanboys then warhammer fanboys by a very large margin. Its grows old when ppl jump on the "lets hate gamesworkshop bandwagon"
DeleteAnd you took the troll bait. :) I was wondering if someone would bite.
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ReplyDeleteGames Workshop has done much to alienate a lot of it's players and as a result people have left the game with much disdain towards Games Workshop. The hate people have towards Games Workshop is not a "bandwagon", it is legitimate disdain toward the company for the way they have been treated.
ReplyDeleteGames Workshop does not make bad games. I think there is enough diversity in the GW range that almost any table top gamer could find at least one of their systems to be enjoyable.Personally I have many fond memories of playing Fantasy, Necromunda (seriously needs an update and more support GW!), and 40k. The question I think any gamer of GW games needs to ask is if they are willing to put up with GW's business practices. For me personally their business practices irritate me enough that I do not want to buy from GW any more. But for any individual that can overlook how GW treats their customers and wants to keep playing 40k/Fantasy/LOTR or any other GW game I sincerely hope they have a blast playing. Those who keep playing though need to lighten up because the hate that is projected at GW as a company is much deserved and is a conversation that needs to continue in hopes that GW will one day change and to serve as a warning to other miniature companies that they can not treat their customers the way GW does.
In short the hatred towards GW is not a "bandwagon" or "nerd rage" it is customers and former customers have legitimate issues with a poorly run company.
Im not going to even bother reading the BS your post is probably filled with. Your a sad pathetic individual for calling me a troll because I like a different game then you. So now I will respond in a way that you will probably understand better then me trying to have an adult conversation with you. Warmachine models look like crap, They are all mono pose models and a box of 10 guys usually has 2 or 3 of the same sculpt in it. Gamesworkshop gives you a lot more control over how your models look. You know what more options mean? it means more cost. there is a reason gamesworkshop and warhammer are more popular, you want to take a guess why? I will tell you why because they are better. Feel free to trash talk me all you want because I will not be returning to feed the pathetic troll that you are
ReplyDeleteYou do realize this is an April fools blog post you are getting riled up about right? My original comment was in fun just like Ray's blog post was. Lighten up, Warhammer and Warmachine are both great games with an emphasis on different areas. I played GW games for close to 20 years off and on and sometimes still play. Your comment did make me smile though. :)
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